映画三作品
１９５４年『ゴジラ』、『ゴジラ─１．０』、『オッペンハイマー』を語る
２０２４年４月４日午後７時開始
作成：佐藤敏宏
Created by Toshihiro Sato
ＦＢ Twitter
Three Films.
Talking about "Godzilla"in 1954, "Godzilla - 1.0" and "Oppenheimer"
April 4, 2024, 7:00 p.m. start time
01
佐藤：鈴木先生、今日はよろしくお願いします。花田先生聞こえますか？
花田：聞こえます。
佐藤：聞こえます！絵が出ていませんが・・。
鈴木：カメラにアクセスしていいですかをOKしないと写りません。NOとした可能性がありますね。一度切ってもう一回はいられたらどうですか。
佐藤：私が切ります、はじめからやり直しましょう。
初めから操作をやり直すことに・・・操作している・・・
佐藤：鈴木先生が入場されたら始めましょう。
鈴木：はい。
佐藤：今晩は、よろしくお願いします。今日は、１９５４年『ゴジラ』と『ゴジラ・マイナス・ワン』と『オッペンハイマー』の３本の映画について語ろう、ということでオンラインですが、集まっていただきました。時間の許す限りお付き合いください、よろしくお願いします。花田先生は『オッペンハイマー』鑑賞されましたか。
花田：観ました。佐藤さんと３月３１日夕方、御徒町で一杯呑んだでしょう、あの時に佐藤さんが「オッペンハイマー観ましたか？」と聞いたんですよ。私はその時に「まだ観てません、明日観ます」と答えたんだけど、本当は土曜日に観てました。
佐藤：そうでしたか（笑）私は御徒町から戻って翌４月１日の夕方に観ました。
花田：土曜日に観てたのに、日曜日に会ったときに嘘ついてしまった。どうしてかと言うと、ある種の映画酔というんですかね、あの映画を観た後にあの映画の虜になってしまって、なんていうのかな、酔っぱらい状態。
佐藤：なるほど、ストーリーも絵のつくりも酔ったような作りですからね。
花田：で、どう考えたらいいのかなと、まだ考え中だったので話さなかった。もしあそこで佐藤さんに言ってしまうと、映画の話になっちゃうでしょう。それは避けたかったので、「いやまだ観てません」と言ったんです。
佐藤：そうでしたか、鑑賞後酔い続けた、いい感じですね。
花田：佐藤さんは「まだ観てない」って言うから、あの映画を観てない人と話してもしょうがないと思った。映画って一つの体験というか、経験だから。それを共有した同士で話するなら、いいんだけど。非対称的に観た人と観てない人で話してもしょうがないので。
自分自体が酔っ払い状態だし、佐藤さんも観てないということだったので、あの映画の話に入ることを私は徹底的に避けたんです。
佐藤：監督の仕掛けにはまりましたね。では、映画『オッペンハイマー』から入りますか。
花田：『ゴジラ』の方からでいいですよ。
佐藤：初めに私が『ゴジラー1.0 (マイナス・ワン）』を良しの？・・でもないかな・・その立場で語ります。花田先生には５４年『ゴジラ』の方を語っていただき、映画を多量に鑑賞され続けてる鈴木先生に解説や間違いを、指摘していただくことにしたいと思います。
花田：私は第一作ね、あっちの方が優れていると思います。
花田達朗 フリーランス社会科学者
1947年長崎県生まれ
早稲田大学名誉教授。東京大学名誉教授
（最終講義録を読む）
Tatsuro Hanada Freelance Social Scientist Born in 1947 in Nagasaki, Japan. Professor Emeritus, Waseda University. Professor Emeritus, The University of Tokyo
鈴木達治郎 原子力工学・原子力政策
１９５１年大阪市生まれ
長崎大学核兵器廃絶研究センター副センター長・教授・「パグウォッシュ会議」評議員
衆議院 原子力問題調査 特別委員会原子力問題に関する件─原子力規制行政の在り方を読む
NHKアーカイブ「福島原発事故後、 原子力政策の見直しに着手」を観る
Tatsujiro Suzuki Nuclear Engineering and Nuclear Policy Born in Osaka, Japan in 1951 Professor, Deputy Director of the Research Center for Nuclear Weapons Abolition, Nagasaki University; Councilor of the "Pugwash Conferences
０１ Deepl Translations
Sato: Dr. Suzuki, please join us today. Hanada-sensei, can you hear me?
Hanada: I can hear you.
Sato: I can hear you! I don't see a picture...
Suzuki: You have to OK if you want to access the camera to get a picture. Why don't you turn it off and try again?
Sato: I'll turn it off and we'll start over.
I'm going to start over from the beginning... I'm operating...
Sato: Let's start when Mr. Suzuki enters.
Suzuki: Yes.
Sato: Good evening. We are here today to talk about three films, "Godzilla", "Godzilla Minus One" and "Oppenheimer" from 1954, although we are online. Please stay with us as long as time permits, and thank you for your time. Hanada-sensei, have you seen "Oppenheimer"?
Hanada: I saw it. On the evening of March 31, you and Mr. Sato had a drink together in Okachimachi, and at that time Mr. Sato asked me, "Did you see Oppenheimer? I said, "No, I haven't seen it yet. I answered, "No, I haven't seen it yet. I will see it tomorrow.
Sato: Oh, I see (laughs). I returned from Okachimachi and saw it on the evening of April 1.
Hanada: I saw it on Saturday, but I lied when we met on Sunday. I don't know why, I guess you could call it a kind of movie drunkenness. After watching that movie, I was captivated by that movie, what can I say, I was in a state of drunkenness.
Sato: I see, because both the story and the picture creation were made in such a way that I was intoxicated.
Hanada: So I didn't talk about it because I was still thinking about how I should think about it. If I had told Mr.
Sato, he would have talked about the movie. I wanted to avoid that, so I said, "No, I haven't seen it yet.
Sato: I see, you continued to get drunk after watching the movie, that's a good feeling.
Hanada: Because you said, "I haven't seen it yet," I thought it was no use talking to someone who hadn't seen that movie. A film is an experience, an experience. If we talk about it with people who have shared that experience, it's fine. But it's no use talking about it with people who have not seen the movie and people who have seen the movie asymmetrically. I myself was in a state of drunkenness, and Mr. Sato had not seen the movie either, so I avoided talking about the movie at all costs.
Sato: You fell for the director's trick. So, shall we start with the movie "Oppenheimer"?
Hanada: You can start with "Godzilla".
Sato: I will start with "Godzilla 1.0 (Minus One)" for good? First of all, I would like to talk about "Godzilla 1.0 (minus one)" from the standpoint of being a good person. I would like to ask Mr. Hanada to talk about "Godzilla" in 54 years, and Mr. Suzuki, who has watched a lot of movies, to explain and point out the mistakes.
Hanada: I think the first film is superior to the other one.
■ゴジラ・マイナス・ワン
（描きだしたもの）
佐藤：マイナス・ワンは今の若者、特に問題抱えて生き続けるしかない男性像を的確に表現していて、いいと思ったんです。理由は何点もありますが、思いつくまま挙げていきます。
まず、「日本の太平洋戦争の末期から語るって変だな？」と思いました。それでマイナスなのか？と。１９５４年『ゴジラ』公開から丁度７０年、第一作をさらに遡り、広島長崎に原爆投下あたりの時間設定で始めた。ですから第一作より約１０年ほど前の人々を描くのだと。
始まりの絵は、大海原の上空を零戦(零式艦上戦闘機）が神風特別攻撃隊の一機が、守備隊（修理？）基地なのかな、大戸島へ着陸する。そこから始ったので、「こりゃ特攻兵が敵前逃亡した飛行機だ・・・」と思ってしまいました。今ふうに言えば「駄目な草食系男性が主役なんだな、面白そうだ・・・」と、勘違いしたかもしれません。
着陸した零戦を操縦していた日本兵は『マイナス・ワン』主役の敷島浩一。故障し着陸したというが・・・どこが壊れているのか整備隊長は発見できない。やはり逃亡・脱走兵か・・と確信することになりました。特攻死が当然の日本軍の兵士を、第一作より遡って、なぜ描く？なぜ逃亡疑惑兵をゴジラとつり合う主役として描くのか？これが映画の裏テーマなんだと思って観ることにしました。
現在の若い男性たちが置かれた正社員になれない姿と、逃亡兵を重ねながら描いているんだという解釈は変かもしれないですね。で、１９４５年前なので、１９５１年日本の独立が許された年に生れた私が、まだ生れる以前の、戦前の時空をどう描くのか？そこに興味が湧きました。
いま（２０２４年）の若い男性たちも、日本兵＝正規社員になることを目指し生きている・・・のだろうと推測したんです。正規社員の席を獲得できる者は１/3の優れた若者であり、金融資本主義の椅子取りの場なのかな、その闘いに破れた者は派遣労働者としてしか生きられない。政治は若者に生きる自信を持たせる基礎的な労働環境を作らず、高度成長期の雇用形態は様変わりしてしまった。自助・公助・共助の順だと総理大臣が平然と語ってから久しいですよね。
戦後高度成長期だったら就職を希望する男性の全員は正社員になれた。それが今世紀に入り派遣業界へ移植された。移植される若者の２/３の方々は、どこから生れて来たのか？それは全国に在るシャッター通り─地方には解体もできず在るシャッター通り─からで、自営業や家業を継いだはずの若者たちだろう。あるいは津々浦々の山紫水明の風景を裏支えしていた、農林業を継ぎ生業とする者だと思われます。そういう方々が「失われた３０年」と言われた時の経過とともに派遣社員へと移植された。自営や農林業では食えないし希望が持てないのでシャッター通りとなり、荒れ果てた山や耕作放棄地となった。
一時「地産地消」などの掛け声は聞こえていたが、身近な場所に店が無いので、ＷＥＢで買う。会社からＰＣを通してＷＥＢで生鮮食料品も注文する。宅配業者に指定の時間に届けさせる。便利そうに見える仕組みは、裏に多量のシットジョブに支えられて成り立っている。今後も大量の派遣労働者のようなシットジョブを支える人は要る。アベノミクス・円安政策が極まっていて外国の人々から労働者はやってこない。けれども給与が安定して上昇する１/３の椅子を目指している。闘いに敗れれば、派遣大地に移植されてしまう。一生正社員の椅子を手に入れることは叶わない。
敷島浩一は名誉の死を果たせない。現在に翻訳すれば正社員という社畜にもなれない、自信喪失で生き続けるしかない若者の代表なのだと思いました。
ゴジラが大戸島に不意に現れ、整備隊長からゴジラを特攻して、あるいは機銃で撃ち殺せ、と指令があったにも関わらず、無能極まる兵士だった彼は、運悪く死ねず生き残った。残ったのは整備隊長の橘宗作と敷島だけ・・・ここで導入部が終わりました。今風だなとも思いました。派遣大地の暮らしが長ければ隣人に愛情を育む時間も居場所も無いように、敷島は生き続ける心理的な基盤も失ってしまった敗残兵だった。
脚本も山崎貴監督、若者に共感を得て見せる、巧みな技あり、ストーリーですね。
絵：小熊英二さんの講演動画より採取
敷島が暮らさなければならない舞台は、日本が太平洋戦争の大空襲に遭った焼け野原の東京。敷島の実家の在った場所に彼は帰還する。全て草木も生えない環境に敷島は放り込まれる、ここからがメインのストーリー。若者なら敷島に感情移入しやすいですよね。
実家に戻る途中、捨て子・赤ん坊（明子）を抱えた大石典子に路上で出会う。なぜか３人で暮らし始めることになった。実家には戻ったものの、隣のおばさんが焼け出されながら逞しく生き残っていた。心に傷を抱えた元日本兵敷島は東京に戻っても血縁は誰も生き残っていない。
『マイナス・ワン』では『ゴジラ』第一作のような血縁と研究縁関係で結ばれ、ゴジラ（困難）に立ち向かう気配はない。ここまで来ても敷島は誰も知り合いには会わない。環境もハートも焦土で、どう生きていくのか？面白そう。
明日、核戦争が起き・・・なにも無い台地に４人が生き残っている・・・そう思って観ていればいろいろ興味が湧くものです。赤ん坊、若い女性、隣のおばさん、そして敷島で・・・どのように生きていくのか？全部焦土でさらに血縁者じゃない４人という設定が、今の若い男性が置かれた心境をあらわしているようで、いいなと思いました。
少し飛ばしまして・・・。
ゴジラと戦うために集まった男たちも、敷島とは無縁の人々。旧友も登場しない。米軍の占領統治下なのに米軍からも、仮の日本政府からも、敷島たちは見放されている。見知らぬ者達が協力しゴジラ・ある種の人災・災害と闘わなければいけない。今のフクシマと似ている。
戦争下なら敷島は軍法会議にかけられ銃殺されるはずだが、敗戦は敷島を生かしてしまう。ダメ男が逃げ帰って来た大地も、さらに焦土。その設定はいいと思いました。まるで原爆投下後の孤児や一人ぼっちの大人のようです。
絵：ＷＥＢより冷戦式艦上戦闘機
キャストの絵は公式サイトより
神風特別攻撃隊
kamikaze special attack unit
米軍による日本本土空襲、実録映像記録
Air Raids by U.S. Forces on the Japanese mainland, a real-life video record
堺大空襲
焦土と後人々が暮らした姿、バラック小屋も分る
Sakai Air Raid Scorched earth and the appearance of people's lives and barrack huts can be seen
■Godzilla minus one (drawn out)
Sato: I thought Minus One was a good idea because it accurately expresses the image of today's youth, especially men who have no choice but to continue living with their problems. There are a number of reasons, but I will list them as I think of them. First, "Isn't it odd that you start telling the story at the end of the Pacific War in Japan?" I thought. Is that a negative? It has been exactly 70 years since the release of "Godzilla" in 1954, and I started setting the time frame around the time of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, further back than the first film. Therefore, we were going to depict people about 10 years before the first film. The beginning of the picture is of a Zero fighter (Type Zero fighter), one of the kamikaze special attack force, flying over a large ocean, with a garrison (repairing?) base. It lands on Odo Island, which is probably a base. Since it started from there, I thought, "This is the plane that the Kamikaze pilots escaped from before the enemy...". In other words, I might have mistakenly thought, "It's an interesting story starring a male herbivore...".
The Japanese soldier piloting the Zero that landed is Koichi Shikishima,
star of "Minus One. He says that the plane malfunctioned and landed...but
the captain of the maintenance crew could not discover what was broken.
He was convinced that he was a deserter or a fugitive. Why depict a Japanese
soldier who deserved to die in a suicide attack, going back further than
the first film? Why portray a suspected deserter as the main character
who is in balance with Godzilla? I decided to watch the movie thinking
that this was the underlying theme of the film.It may be strange to interpret that I am drawing the young men of today as being unable to become full-time employees, while overlapping the fugitive soldiers with the situation they are placed in today. And since it is before 1945, how would I, who was born in 1951, the year Japan was granted independence, depict the prewar time and space, before I was even born yet? That is what interests me.
I guessed that the young men of today (2024) are also living to become Japanese soldiers = regular employees...................... Those who can win a seat as a regular employee are 1/3 of outstanding young men, and those who are defeated in this struggle can only live as temporary workers. Politics has not created a basic working environment that gives young people the confidence to live, and the employment patterns of the high-growth period have changed. It has been a long time since the prime minister flatly stated that self-help, public assistance, and mutual assistance are the order of the day.
During the postwar high-growth period, all men who wanted to find a job could become full-time employees. In this century, however, they have been transplanted into the temporary employment industry. Where did two-thirds of these transplanted youths come from? They are probably from the shuttered streets that exist all over the country, and which cannot be dismantled in the countryside, and they are young people who should have been self-employed or taken over the family business. Or perhaps they are those who have taken over the agriculture and forestry businesses that have supported the landscape of the mountains, forests, and rivers in every corner of Japan. These people were transplanted to temporary employment as the "lost 30 years" passed. Since they could not eat or have hope in self-employment or agriculture and forestry, they became shuttered streets, desolate mountains, and abandoned farmland.
At one time we heard calls for "local production for local consumption," but there are no stores close by, so we buy on the Web. I also order fresh groceries on the Web from my office via my PC. The delivery company delivers them at the designated time. This seemingly convenient system is supported by a large number of sit-jobs behind the scenes. In the future, people will continue to be needed to support the large number of dispatch workers and other such "sit-job" workers. Abenomics and the weak yen policies have been extreme, and workers from foreign countries are not coming to Japan. But they are going for 1/3rd chairs where salaries are stable and rising. If they lose the fight, they will be transplanted to the temp land. They will never achieve a permanent chair for the rest of their lives.
Koichi Shikishima cannot die with honor. Translated to the present, I thought he represented a young man who could not even become a corporate employee, a full-time employee, and had no choice but to continue living with a loss of self-confidence.I also thought it was very current. Just as a long life in a dispatched land leaves one with no time or place to develop affection for one's neighbors, Shikishima was a defeated soldier who had also lost the psychological foundation that kept him alive. The screenplay, also directed by Takashi Yamazaki, is a cleverly crafted, skillful, and story that shows young people in a sympathetic way.
Picture: taken from Eiji Oguma's lecture video.
The setting in which Shikishima must live is a burnt-out Tokyo, where Japan suffered a massive air raid during the Pacific War. He returns to the place where Shikishima's parents' house used to be. Shikishima is thrown into an environment where not a single plant or tree grows. Young people can easily empathize with Shikishima.
On her way back to her parents' house, she meets Noriko Oishi on the street
with her abandoned baby (Akiko). For some reason, the three of them decided
to start living together. Although they returned to their parents' home,
the woman next door had survived the fire, but she was still resilient.
Shikishima, a heartbroken ex-Japanese soldier, returned to Tokyo, but none of his blood relatives survived.
In "Minus One," Shikishima is united by blood and research ties as in the first "Godzilla" film, and there is no indication that he will face Godzilla (difficulties). Even up to this point, Shikishima does not meet anyone he knows. How will he survive in a scorched earth environment and heart? It will be interesting.
Tomorrow, a nuclear war breaks out... four people survive on an empty plateau... If you watch the film with this in mind, you will be interested in many things. A baby, a young woman, an aunt next door, and an island...how will they survive? I liked the setting of four people who are all scorched earth and furthermore not blood relatives, because it seems to express the state of mind that young men are in nowadays.
I'm going to skip a few...
Under war, Shikishima would have been court-martialed and shot, but the defeat keeps him alive. The land that the no-good man fled back to is even more scorched earth. I thought that setting was good. It is like orphans and lone adults after the atomic bombing.
原爆投下後の焦土に生きた孤児たちを描いたドキュメンタリー『被爆地にたつ孤児収容所〜２千人の父、上栗頼登〜』
Orphan camps in the A-bombed city: Father of 2,000, Yorito Kamikuri," a documentary about orphans who lived in the scorched earth after the atomic bombing.
自信喪失している現在の若い男たちにとって、マイナス・ワンのゴジラは何の象徴なんだ？と想像しました。
最近頻発している自然災害と受けるのがいいと思いましたね。阪神淡路大震災・地下鉄サリン事件の１９９５年。大地動乱の時代に入っての多重災害を振り返ると腑に落ちる。
特に２０２４年元旦に起きた能登地方の大地震の経過と照らし合わせると、自助の世の興味は尽きない。馳知事の言動にも、総理の言動にも、自助優先。彼ら被災者を想えば易い。政府の支援の手は届かない、自分で生きていくしかない・・まるで敷島浩一のようだ。
今の世の政治状況を象徴してた、ゴジラ・災害と被災者たち。
焦土に掘っ立て小屋（？）に、赤ん坊と典子と、浩一が暮らし始める。玄関も無い、台所はどこにあるのかも・・分からない。コンビニ（当時は屋台）で買うのだろう、煮炊きしない単なるワンルームに見える家屋内部。
そこで自信喪失した敷島は苦しみを抱え、毎夜、悶え生きていて、共に暮らす、二人の女性が目に入らない。内向きで脳が満たされている男として描かれていた。自分と世界（？）しか理解できない、いわゆるセカイ系のダメ男だ。そういう設定が面白かったですね。
敷島の親でもあるかのように振る舞う隣のおばさんから、檄を飛ばされ世話になるだけで、さほど会話が生まれない。同様に典子と一つ屋根の下にくらしていても、会話が成立しない。人間なんだから語りかけよ！と尻叩きに、画面に入って行きたくなるほどの駄目っぷり。
敷島は今風の若い男性で、現代的な人間に感じました。人間関係が作れない。高度成長期に生まれていたなら人間関係をつくれただろうに、非正規派遣では心も職も、日雇いの生きる様だ。人間の会話が生れない労働環境で生きている、そういう若い男性を、まま象徴している男が敷島。そう何度も駄目押しされ、観ることになりました。
敷島は、私から見ると父の世代です。敗戦で帰還して、家も田畑も仕事もない引き揚げ者多数いた世代。例えば満州から帰国し福島県浪江の津島に開墾に入り、放射能を浴びさせられて故郷も暮らし方も、すべて自信喪失になった人々に似ている。
帰国しても天皇の臣民でもなく、独立国日本でもなく、占領統治下に生きるしかない男。三島由紀夫のように日本人は天皇を中心として文化を作りなおせと激を飛ばしつつ、割腹自殺して自己結論を出した世代。敗戦時２０才ほどの彼ら敷島は帝国憲法と日本国憲法によって引き裂かれた精神構造を抱える。敷島は自信喪失しても切腹自殺しない、ただ生きている。新しい家族も作れない、作ろうともしない・・どうにもこうにもならない男性。その設定はいいな・・と思いましたね。
（注：たかだか語り手自身の了見を「世界」という誇大な言葉で表したがる傾向があり、そこから「セカイ系」という名称になった」ＷＥＢより）
その後の物語とかゴジラとの派手な戦いはどうでもいいかな・・・とすこし思いました。ゴジラはセカイ系の男に波状に押し寄せる災害なんだ・・・そう観る方が、面白いのでは。
〆が、大戸島で生き残った橘宗作整備隊長が、１機残っていた戦闘機を仕上げて、敷島がゴジラに特攻することによって、自信を再生させる。粋な展開になっていましたね。
もっと粋なのは、敷島は「ゴジラと共にここで死ぬ！」その決意で、ゴジラに特攻するも助かってしまう。整備隊長はミサイルを打ち込んだ瞬間、操縦席が空高く舞い上がるように救い出す仕掛けを造っていた。そのことは描かれてはいませんが、敷島は自信回復。ゴジラの顔が壊れ、再生しながら相模湾沖に沈んでいく。
生きて抗え！と山崎監督は若者にムチ打つが・・・果たしてどうなるか・・・。
みながバンザイとなって、取って付けたようにゴジラに襲われ行方不明の典子が現れる、幸いを予想させつつ映画が終わる。
マイナス・ワンでは博士も役立たずに、描かれていたのも面白かったです。派手なVFXはどこまで、実写がどこまで？なのか観ててもわからず。とにかく派手に描く。細かくゴジラの身体を描くことができるんだなーと感心しました。
What does the minus one Godzilla symbolize for today's young men with self-doubt? I imagined.
I thought it would be good to take it as a natural disaster that has been occurring frequently recently. It was 1995, the year of the Great Hanshin-Awaji Earthquake and the Sarin gas attack on the subway. It becomes clear when we look back at the multiple disasters that entered the era of earthquakes and upheavals. The world of self-help is of endless interest, especially in light of the course of the major earthquake in the Noto region that occurred on New Year's Day 2024. Whether in the words and deeds of Governor Hase or the Prime Minister, self-help comes first. It is easy to think of those victims. The government's support is out of reach, and they have to survive on their own, just like Koichi Shikishima.
Gojira, disasters, and victims symbolized the political situation of the world today.
The baby, Noriko, and Koichi begin to live in a shack (?) in the scorched earth. The baby, Noriko, and Koichi begin to live in a shack (?) in the scorched earth. There is no front door, no idea where the kitchen is. The interior of the house looks like a mere one-room apartment without cooking facilities, probably bought from a convenience store (a food stall at that time). Shikishima, who has lost his self-confidence, is in pain there, living in agony night after night, and the two women he lives with are out of sight. He was portrayed as an inward-looking, brain-filled man. He was portrayed as an inward-looking, brain-filled man who could only understand himself and the world (?). He is a so-called Sekai-kei no good man who only understands himself and the world (?). That kind of setting was interesting.
The woman next door, who acts as if she is Shikishima's parent, only sends her a message and takes care of her, but not much conversation takes place. Similarly, even when living under the same roof with Noriko, no conversation takes place. She is a human being, so you should talk to her! I wanted to go into the movie and slap her on the butt.
Shikishima is a modern young man and felt like a modern human being. He cannot make relationships. If he had been born during the high-growth period, he would have been able to create human relationships, but as a non-regular dispatched worker, his mind and job are like living in a day job. Shikishima is a man who symbolizes such young men who live in a work environment where human conversation is impossible. I had to watch the film after being repeatedly urged to do so.
Shikishima, from my perspective, is my father's generation. This is the generation of many repatriates who returned home after the war and had no homes, fields, or jobs. For example, they are similar to those who returned from Manchuria and went to Tsushima in Namie, Fukushima Prefecture to cultivate land, but were exposed to radiation and lost all confidence in their hometown and way of life. A man who, upon returning home, is no longer a subject of the emperor or of the independent nation of Japan, but has no choice but to live under occupying rule. A generation like Yukio Mishima's, who concluded themselves by committing suicide by ritual suicide, while fiercely urging the Japanese people to rebuild their culture with the emperor as the center of it. They were about 20 years old at the time of the war's defeat, and Shikishima's mentality was torn apart by the Imperial Constitution and the Japanese Constitution. Shikishima lost confidence, but they did not commit seppuku suicide, they just lived. He is a man who can't or won't create a new family...a man who can't help himself. I like that setup...I thought.
(Note: There is a tendency to use the exaggerated term "world" to describe the mere idea of the narrator himself, from which the name "Sekai-kei" was derived.)
I thought the story after that and the flashy battle with Godzilla were not important.... Godzilla is a disaster that comes in waves to the man of Sekaikei...it would be more interesting to see it that way.
The closing of the event regenerated the confidence of the surviving Sosaku Tachibana maintenance captain on Otojima, who finished the one remaining fighter plane, and Shikishima's suicide attack on Godzilla. It was a stylish turn of events.
More stylishly, Shikishima says, "I will die here with Godzilla!" With this determination, he makes a suicide attack on Godzilla, but is saved. The maintenance captain had built a device to save him so that the moment the missile was launched, the cockpit would soar high into the sky. Although this is not depicted, Shikishima regains confidence. Godzilla's face breaks and regenerates as it sinks off the coast of Sagami Bay.
Live and fight! Yamazaki whips the young man into shape...but what will happen?
The film ends with everyone going "Banzai," anticipating the good fortune of Noriko, who is missing after being attacked by Godzilla, as if it were an afterthought.
It was also interesting to see how the doctor was portrayed, uselessly, in Minus One. How much of the flashy VFX and how much of the live action? I couldn't tell from watching it. Anyway, it is drawn flamboyantly. I was impressed that they could draw Godzilla's body in detail.
「勝手に解釈するんじゃねーよ・・・」と思いますでしょうが・・。
鈴木：それでいい、解釈はみなさん勝手ですから、いい。
佐藤：画像全体が派手・・それに比べ、仕事がない若者が再生していく？生きて抗え、・・救いがどこにあるのか・・それらをはっきりさせずにお仕舞になるのも面白い。
単身者世帯が増加して世帯数の４割に届きそうだと言われます。そこでは、２００５年NHKが放送した「ひとり団地一室で」で描かれ、孤独死という言葉も定着しました。日常的に行政の場で使われている。そういう世にあって災害と闘うとは何か？・・・いろいろ思わせる、映画でした。
現在も過去も、家族同士を含め、人間関係構築は難しい。『ゴジラ』第一作からマイナス・ワンにかけ描かれたのは、家庭内で孤立する人々だったかな。敷島は高度成長からマイナス・ワンされ、半アンチ・ヒーローなのかもしれない、でも事件は起こさないですね。それが敷島浩一なんじゃないかな・・・と。
１９６５年敗戦から２０年後・・昭和４０年の団地暮らし
下：焦土だった東京の変貌の一例
You may be thinking, "Don't interpret it as you like....
Suzuki: That's fine, it's up to you all to interpret.
Sato: The whole image is flashy... In comparison, a young man without a job is regenerating? Live and resist, ... It is also interesting that the film ends without clarifying where the salvation lies.
It is said that the number of single-person households is increasing and is about to reach 40% of all households. There, the term "lonely death" has also taken root, as depicted in the 2005 NHK broadcast of "Hitori Danchi Ichiritsu de" ("In a single room in a single apartment complex"). It is used in government on a daily basis. What does it mean to fight against disasters in such a world? This movie made me think about many things.
It is difficult to build human relationships, including among family members, both in the present and in the past. From the first "Godzilla" film to "Minus One," I think it was people isolated within their own families that were depicted. Shikishima may be a semi-anti-hero, but he doesn't cause any incidents. I think that is Koichi Shikishima....
絵：ＷＥＢより
■マイナス・ワンに取柄はある
花田：ゴジラ・マイナス・ワンは取柄がないわけではなくって、私が印象をもった作りは、戦後すぐの時代なわけで、GHQがいる占領期ですよね。その時に、戦争から帰ってきた人たちがゴジラ対応にあたる。その時の彼らの認識が日本政府や米軍は頼りにならないので、俺達でやるしかないんだ！ということで集まるわけですよね。義勇軍のようにね。そこは面白い。
戦争を経験したうえで、日本政府を信用しないぞ・・という事と、占領軍として入って来た米軍も信用しないぞと。だから俺達自身で、言ってみればシビル・ソサエティ、民間ですよね。民間活力みたいなものですよね。それで、ゴジラ対応をせざるを得ないんだという設定。これは面白いと思うんです。
ただ一寸、リアリティーが無いと思うんです。つまり米軍が出てこないわけは無いわけで、放っておいたって出てくるし、だから架空の話みたいなことになり、強引に民間活力路線にもっていっている気がするんですね。そこはちょっと違和感がありました。
それから映像的には第一作との比較になるけれど、明るすぎると思うんです。マイナス・ワンはゴジラが昼間、活動するわけです。明るい日向の下に活動する。だからVFXで明るいシーンで迫力を出そうとしてたのかなと思うんだけど。私はむしろ第一作の暗い、闇夜にゴジラが出てくる、あれがいい。それで、特撮にしても、着ぐるみで第一作は撮影している。マイナス・ワンはVFXで制作していて、ゴジラの描き方の技術が違うんだけど、昼間か闇夜かで言うと、闇の中のゴジラの方がリアリティーがあったと思うんです。
何か、マイナス・ワンは映像が明るすぎる、真っ昼間って感じ。で、みんなで頑張って民間活力で、ゴジラ退治をしようと盛り上がっている、その明るさ。あの明るさ自体に私は非常に違和感がありましたね。
鈴木：微笑
アメリカ占領下の日本大日本帝国解体
ゴジラ登場に驚く大戸島の若者
スリムでコワイ表情が効いている。壊れる民家の梁も効いている
Young man on Odo Island surprised by Godzilla's appearance. The slim and scary expression is effective. The beams of the collapsing house are also effective.
■ Minus one has its advantages.
Hanada: Godzilla minus one is not without its merits. I was impressed by its creation in the immediate postwar period, the period of occupation with GHQ. At that time, people who had returned from the war were in charge of dealing with Gojira. Their perception at that time was that the Japanese government and the U.S. military could not be relied on, so we had to do it ourselves! That's why they gather together. Like a volunteer army. That is interesting.
After having experienced the war, we said that we do not trust the Japanese government, and we also do not trust the U.S. military that came in as an occupying force. So, we ourselves, as a civil society, are the private sector. It's a kind of civilian vitality. So we have no choice but to respond to Gojira. I think this is interesting.
However, I think it lacks a bit of reality. In other words, there is no reason why the U.S. military would not appear in the film, and they would appear even if we left them out, so I feel that the story is fictitious, and that the film was forced to take a civilian energy route. I felt a little uncomfortable about that.
Also, in terms of visuals, I think it is too bright, although it is a comparison with the first film. In Minus One, Godzilla is active during the daytime. It is active under the bright sunlight. I think that's why they were trying to make the bright scenes more powerful with VFX. I prefer the dark, dark night of the first film, where Godzilla appears. So, even for special effects, the first film was shot with stuffed animals. Minus One was made with VFX, and the technique for depicting Godzilla is different, but if you ask me whether it was daytime or dark night, I think Godzilla in the dark was more realistic.
Something about Minus One is that the images are too bright, like it's broad daylight. The brightness of the images, with everyone trying their best to exterminate Godzilla with the energy of the private sector, was very disconcerting to me. I was very uncomfortable with the brightness itself.
Suzuki: Smile
登場する役者 みなさんスリム
Godzilla" | Trailer | Godzilla: The First Movie Actors appearing in the film Everyone Slim
佐藤：ゴジラの出生、ゴジラの誕生はマイナス・ワンでは説明がなかったかも？
鈴木：一応ありましたよ、核実験でできたという説明はありますよ。アメリカ軍が発見するんですけど。回りに放射能が一杯あって、核実験らしいと・・・最初の方にありました。たぶんそうだと思う。そこはオリジン（起源）は一緒なんです。他のゴジラ映画とは違う。アメリカのゴジラ映画はそこが全く無い、オリジンがはっきりしない。逆に水爆でゴジラをやっつける、兵器でゴジラをやっつけようとなっちゃう。オリジンが水爆・核実験であったということがゴジラのオリジンなので、そこに戻ったという処は私はよかったなと思いました。
私はですね、一作目がいいと思うのは、今でも通じる政府の隠匿姿勢とか、一杯でてきますよね。ゴジラは品川の辺りから来るんです。東京大空襲の跡をゴジラが追っかけ、襲う。まさに今花田先生がおっしゃった、夜来るんですね。そのメタファーそれを使って大変な恐怖を感じさせる、一作目の方が恐怖感があった。
私が第一作で好きなのは、芹沢（大助）博士。オキシジェン・デストロイヤー（Oxygen Destroyer）の公表を彼が悩む。「これを使わないとゴジラは殺せないけど、これを世の中に知らせるとまた悪用されてしまう」と、悩んで、最後はオキシジン・デストロイヤーを渡すんだけど、それと一緒に死んでしまう。
非常に悲劇的な結末なんですけど、科学者の葛藤というのがマイナス・ワンにはほとんど無くって、市民社会が何か理由の分からないことになっている。マイナス・ワンのゴジラは死んでないですよね、再生する！シーンが最後ありましたでしょう。
以下キャスト絵は
予告編よりスクリーンショット
The following cast picture is screenshot from the trailer.
Sato: Godzilla's birth, Godzilla's birth might not have been explained in Minus One?
Suzuki: There was one, and there is an explanation that it was created by a nuclear test. The U.S. military discovered it. There was a lot of radioactivity around it, and it was said at the beginning that it was a nuclear test.... I think that's probably true. The origin is the same. It is different from other Godzilla movies. American Godzilla movies don't have that at all, and the origin is not clear. On the contrary, they try to kill Godzilla with a hydrogen bomb, or with weapons. The origin of Godzilla is the hydrogen bomb and nuclear tests, so I was glad that they went back to that.
I think the first film is good because it is full of the government's concealing attitude, which is still common today. Godzilla comes from the Shinagawa area. Godzilla chases after and attacks the ruins of the Tokyo Air Raid. That is exactly what Mr. Hanada just said, that it comes at night. The first film was more terrifying than the second one.
My favorite part of the first film is Dr. Serizawa (Daisuke). He worries about the release of the Oxygen Destroyer. He gives the Oxygen Destroyer to Dr. Serizawa, but he dies with it.It is a very tragic ending, but the conflict of the scientists is almost absent in Minus One, and civil society has no idea what the reason is. In Minus One, Godzilla is not dead, but regenerates! There was a scene at the end, wasn't there?
佐藤：大きな違いですね！マイナス・ワン、海中に沈みながら再生していくシーンが〆でしたね。
鈴木：病院で助かった、大石典子はなぜ助かったかと言うと、最後のシーンの処、首のところに影があるんですよ、なかなか気が付かないですけど。私はニ回観たから気がついた。首のところに影が有って、ゴジラが再生する能力というのが、たぶんゴジラの放射能によって、だから合っている。彼女はそれで助かった。そうすると彼女はもはやゴジラの分身になってしまった。そういう設定らしいです。
佐藤：そういう設定でしたか！気がつかなかった。なるほど。
鈴木：だから第ニ作が大変楽しみです。マイナス・ワンの特殊視覚効果の中で私が一番びっくりしたのは、ゴジラが海を泳いで行くシーン。ゴジラが泳いで主人公が乗った機雷除去船を追っかけるシーンがある。泳ぐ、あれは今までには無いんです。
今までのゴジラは歩くか水中を泳ぐのはアメリカの映画にはあるんです。水面に顔をだしてジャブジャブジャブジャブ泳ぐって、あれは大変なんですよ！初めてなんですあれは凄い技術です。
佐藤：VFXは人間がジャブジャブ泳いだ水しぶきを合成したのか！？
鈴木：そうなんですよ。VFX、あれがたぶん評価されたんじゃないかな。凄い迫力でしたよね。
佐藤：そうなんですね、着ぐるみゴジラとVFXゴジラの違い。VFXはゴジラの鼻毛まで近づいて画像を作成できる、寄り絵の有無の違いですかね。
鈴木：顔がやたらでかいです。あれは全体のバランスに顔をくらべたら、泳ぐ、あの時のシーンはでかいです。
佐藤：確かに、泳いでる水面下のゴジラ姿を想像するとあの頭だと、設定身長よりかなりデカイかも、地上に現れる時はやたらに頭と顔が小さいゴジラでしたね。
Sato: It's a big difference! Minus one, the scene where you regenerate while sinking underwater was the closing.
Suzuki: The reason why Noriko Oishi survived in the hospital is that in the last scene, there is a shadow on her neck, though it is not easy to notice. It is not easy to notice, but I noticed it because I watched the movie twice. The shadow on her neck is probably due to Godzilla's radiation, which is why she was able to regenerate. That's how she survived. Then she became an alter ego of Gojira. That seems to be the setup.Sato: Was that how it was set up? I hadn't noticed. I see.
Suzuki: So I am very much looking forward to the second film. Of all the special visual effects in Minus One, the one that surprised me the most was the scene where Godzilla swims through the ocean. There is a scene where Godzilla swims and chases after the de-mining ship that the main character is on. Swimming, that has never happened before. In American films, Godzilla used to walk or swim underwater. It's very difficult for him to swim face first on the surface of the water, jabbing and jabbing! It's the first time, that's a great technique.
Sato: The VFX was a composite of human jabbering splashes!
Suzuki: Yes, the VFX, I think that was probably appreciated. It was very powerful.
Sato: Yes, there is a difference between a stuffed Godzilla and a VFX Godzilla: the VFX can create an image close up to Godzilla's nose hairs, with or without a close-up drawing.
Suzuki: His face is huge. If you compare the face to the overall balance, the swimming scene is huge.
Sato: Indeed, if you imagine Godzilla swimming underwater, his head might be much larger than the set height, but when he appears on the ground, he has a very small head and face.
鈴木：そうそう。それで機雷で、撃つじゃないですか。そして顔を壊すシーンあるじゃないですか。要するに泳いで来るシーンと泳いでいる、ゴジラを機雷で撃つシーンはなかなかよく出来ていて。泳ぐシーンって凄い！感激して観ていたんです。
例えばジュラシックパークなんかでも恐竜が泳いで追う、ああいうのは無いです。水中を泳ぐか、水中から出てジャンプして物を捕まえるとかです。ゴジラ・マイナス・ワンは、あまり人を食わなかったですよね。最初のところだけかな。
佐藤：最初の大戸島の戦闘シーンでは整備兵をくわえただけでしたね。あの絵は人形が壊れたようで恐怖感は少なかったですね。
鈴木：あのへんはジュラシック・パークみたいだ。泳いで追かっけてくるシーンが一番迫力があって、あそこは何回観ても面白い！マイナス・ワンの良いところはあそこです。それはゴジラのオリジナルより勝っていると思う。
でも、ストーリーはおっしゃった通り、二人の人間関係と隣の奥さんの人間関係が、当時の状況と、今初めて教わったけど、確かに被災者の方々の写しという感じですよね、確かに。いい感想を伺った。シン・ゴジラは観ましたか？
The above picture is a screencap from the embedded video.
Suzuki: Yes, yes. And then you shoot them with mines. And then there is the scene where he breaks his face. In short, the scene where Godzilla comes swimming and the scene where he swims and shoots Godzilla with the mine is quite well done. The swimming scene is amazing! I was so impressed that I watched it.
For example, in Jurassic Park, there is no such thing as dinosaurs swimming and chasing. They swim underwater or get out of the water and jump to catch things. Godzilla minus one didn't eat many people, did it? Only in the beginning, I think.
Sato: In the first battle scene on Odo Island, you just had a mechanic in your mouth. That picture was less terrifying because it looked like a broken doll.
Suzuki: That part is like Jurassic Park. The scene where they swim after him is the most powerful, and that part is interesting no matter how many times I see it! That is the best part of Minus One. I think it beats the original Godzilla.
But the story, as you said, the relationship between the two of them and the neighbor's wife is like a copy of the situation at the time and, as I just learned for the first time, certainly a copy of the victims, that's for sure. I heard good feedback. Have you seen Shin Godzilla?
■シン・ゴジラは福島原発事故
花田：私は観てません。オリジナルとマイナス・ワンの二本しか観ていません。
佐藤：私はシン・ゴジラは観ました。
鈴木：シン・ゴジラは福島の原発事故です。
佐藤：そうでしたか（笑）筋は政府批判が全面に出ていたのは分かったけど、決めが無いので全体の物語は分かりにくかったですね。
鈴木：あれは明らかに福島の原発事故対応を皮肉っている。最後、氷で固まるじゃないですか。あれは凍土壁ですはははは。、
佐藤：シン・ゴジラは山の手線またいで固まっちゃってお仕舞。面白くなかったです。
鈴木：あれは日本政府内の危機管理の拙さ、で政府批判。政府の中のはぐれ者が活躍するんです。
佐藤：シン・ゴジラはアメリカ政府のエージェントでしょうか、女性が指図する。
鈴木：そうそう、あれは訳わからん・・ははは。
佐藤：福島の原発事故時対応に米国から指示？！あういうことが起きていたのか・・と邪推しました。（下の埋め込み動画参照）
■ Shin Godzilla is the Fukushima nuclear accident
Hanada: I have not seen it. I have only seen the original and Minus One.
Sato: I watched Shin Godzilla.
Suzuki: Shin Godzilla is the Fukushima nuclear accident.
Sato: I see what you mean (laughs). I understood that the plot was all about criticism of the government, but it was hard to understand the whole story because there were no decisions to be made.
Suzuki: That was clearly an ironic response to the Fukushima nuclear accident. It's the ice wall at the end, isn't it? That is a frozen soil wall ha ha ha.
Sato: Shin Godzilla was stuck across the Yamanote Line and that was the end of it. It was not interesting.
Suzuki: That was poor crisis management within the Japanese government, and criticism of the government. It's the stragglers within the government that are active.
Sato: Is Shin Godzilla an agent of the U.S. government, or a woman giving orders?
Suzuki: Yeah, yeah, I don't understand that one... haha.
Sato: Instructions from the U.S. to respond to the nuclear accident at Fukushima? I wickedly wondered if something like that had happened.... (See embedded video below)
Nuclear Power and the Atomic Bomb] Postwar Nuclear Issues in Japan: The U.S. Nuclear Strategy Behind the War｜ABEMA Documentary
■芹沢博士はなぜゴジラと、死んだか
鈴木：花田先生のおっしゃったマイナス・ワンは市民社会・シビル・ソサエティが闘った、というのは私も面白い視点だなと思いました。あの技術はちょっとおかしいですよね。ふふふふ。マイナスワンのゴジラと戦う、技術的にはおかしいですよね、そういう意味ではオキシジェン・デストロイヤーの方が、どうせ訳が分からないんだったら、オキシジェン・デストロイヤー（黄色で囲む）の方が面白い。マイナス・ワンはリアリティーに近づきかたが失敗しちゃったかなと。
佐藤：出来過ぎる映像技術は観客の想像力を阻害する（笑）最初のゴジラ第一作は役者さんたちも顔も体も絞られていて（飢えていた時代）敗戦後そのものの人の姿で、いいと思うんです。花田先生の指摘のようにゴジラの出方が怖いですよね。マイナス・ワンは役者は敗戦直後の人間の表情にしては太り過ぎ、艶有り過ぎ（笑）だからでしょうね。花田先生が指摘されたように一作は、怖さに具体的で身近な恐怖が数倍ありますよね。
鈴木：怖い恐い。
佐藤：ゴジラ出てこない、だけど恐いんです。大戸島の漁民の家屋に寝ている時にゴジラが現れ大地が揺れて、民家の屋根の梁が寝床に落ちる！あの絵は怖いです。建築界に暮らしていて木造はバラバラになって圧死しするイメージが湧いてしまう、そのリアリティーがある。あれが地震大国、日本の家屋実情と直結するのが怖いですね。耐震補強してもゴジラが登場すると意味を成さない。
マイナス・ワンはゴジラの登場の仕方がまったく怖くない！ジュラシックパークの恐竜が振り向きざまにバクッと人間の頭を食って、頭なし人間を見せてる、恐竜を屋内外を走り回らせ人を襲いにくるので怖いのなんの・・。
鈴木：花田先生のおっしゃったようにオリジナル・ゴジラは暗闇から突然出てくるのは怖いですよ。
佐藤：着ぐるみ着て撮影してて、ゴジラを離れた距離でしか撮影できないその点、撮影の創意工夫が画像の良さに繋がっていますよね。
鈴木：そうです。
佐藤：『ゴジラ』は物語と主役たちは、昭和の家族団らんふうに組まれている。ストーリーは古生物を研究している山根博士、娘と弟子の芹沢博士とサルベージ業者で娘の婚約者（？）の４人。片目の芹沢博士が現れプチ三角関係、昭和家族の親密ななかで、ゴジラと闘う物語が展開していく。観客には身近な想像しやすい物語なので共感を得やすいですよね。
鈴木：分かり易い、第一作の方がね。
佐藤：マイナス・ワン、物語の筋は分かり難い。鈴木先生の指摘で私が分からなかったのは「芹沢博士がなぜゴジラと一緒に骨になるの？」その点は分かりにくい。
自分の脳内の兵器をアウトプットして、論文を残してしまうと世界に広まってしまい、オキシジェン・デストロイヤーが広まると地上の生物がすべて骨になってしまうと指摘しているんだと思うけど。
原爆の製造過程を鈴木先生に、お聞きしていると科学者たちは、世界中の最新の理論と実験を共有して発展させる共同知なのだから、一個製造してしまえば技術は津々浦々に伝わってしまう。そういう発想はゴジラの一作目には無い。そこが明かされていて興味深い。
鈴木：芹沢博士が死んでしまっても論文は残る、ゴジラと共に骨になる、あそこは映画『オッペンハイマー』とつながるところですね。
佐藤：一作は敵と共に骨になって終わる。日本の科学者はどう考えるのか・・内向きで閉じてしまうのには疑問。
鈴木：パンドラの箱を開けてしまったらもうだめ、一回開けてしまったらだめ。
佐藤：科学者が自分の発見した知見と成果物と共に、骨になってしまうのは科学者らしくないと思って・・そこだけは何度聞いても分からない。
鈴木：芹沢博士が一人で開発したのよ。自分が死ねば地上から無くなる。オッペンハイマーは「マンハッタン・プロジェクト」の科学者の一人だからね。
■ Why did Dr. Serizawa die with Godzilla?
Suzuki: I thought what Dr. Hanada said about Minus One being fought by Civil Society/Civil Society was an interesting perspective, too. That technology is a bit strange, isn't it? Hmmm. Minus One fighting Godzilla, that's technically strange. In that sense, Oxygen Destroyer (circled in yellow) is more interesting than Oxygen Destroyer (circled in yellow), if it doesn't make sense anyway. I think Minus One failed in the way it approached reality.
Sato: I think it is good that the actors in the first Godzilla film had their faces and bodies squeezed (when they were starving) and looked like people after the defeat. As Dr. Hanada pointed out, the way Godzilla comes out is scary. Minus one is that the actors are too fat and too shiny (laugh) to look like people right after the defeat. As Dr. Hanada pointed out, one of the films has several times more specific and familiar fears.
Suzuki: Scary scary.
Sato: Godzilla doesn't appear, but it's scary. While sleeping in a fisherman's house on Odo Island, Godzilla appears, the earth shakes, and a beam from the roof of the house falls on the bed! That picture is scary. Living in the architectural world, the image of wooden structures falling apart and being crushed to death comes to mind, and there is that reality. It is scary that this image is directly related to the reality of houses in Japan, an earthquake-prone country. Even if they are reinforced against earthquakes, they will be meaningless when Godzilla appears.
Minus one is the way Godzilla appears, which is not scary at all! The dinosaur from Jurassic Park turns around and eats a human's head, showing a headless man...scary because it makes the dinosaur run around indoors and outdoors to attack people....
Suzuki: As Dr. Hanada said, the original Godzilla is scary coming out of the darkness all of a sudden.
Sato: The story and main characters of "Godzilla" are set in the style of a Showa-era family reunion. The story is about four people: Dr. Yamane, a researcher of paleontology, his daughter, his apprentice Dr. Serizawa, and his daughter's fiancee (?), a salvage contractor. The story is about four people. The one-eyed Dr. Serizawa appears and the story unfolds as they fight Godzilla in the midst of a petit triangle and the intimacy of a Showa family. It's an easy story for the audience to relate to because it's familiar and easy to imagine.
Suzuki: Easy to understand, the first one is.
Sato: Minus one, the story line is hard to understand. Dr. Suzuki's point that I didn't understand was, "Why does Dr. Serizawa become bones with Godzilla?" That point is difficult to understand.
I guess I'm pointing out that if you output your own brain weapon and leave a paper behind, it will spread around the world, and if the Oxygen Destroyer spreads, all life on earth will become bone.
When I asked Dr. Suzuki about the manufacturing process of the atomic bomb, he told me that scientists share and develop the latest theories and experiments from all over the world as a form of collaborative knowledge, so that once one piece is manufactured, the technology is transmitted to every corner of the world. Such an idea is not in the first Godzilla film. It is interesting that this was revealed in the first Godzilla film.
Suzuki: Even if Dr. Serizawa dies, his thesis remains, and he becomes bone together with Godzilla, which is the connection to the movie "Oppenheimer".
Sato: One work ends up as bones with the enemy. I wonder what Japanese scientists think about it...I doubt that it will be closed inwardly.
Suzuki: Once you open Pandora's box, you can no longer open it, and once you open it, you can no longer open it.
Sato: I don't think it's like a scientist to become bones along with his findings and deliverables...that's the only part I don't understand no matter how many times I hear it.
Suzuki: Dr. Serizawa developed it all by himself. It will disappear from the earth when he dies. Oppenheimer was one of the scientists of the "Manhattan Project.
■科学者の主張の多様さ
花田：ゴジラ第一作で私が面白いのは二人の科学者ですね。古生物学の山根博士と芹沢博士は愛弟子だという設定になっているけれども、専門は違っている。芹沢博士は薬物化学者。あの二人の科学者が第一作の主人公だと思うんですね。それでスタンスも違うわけです。老山根博士は古生物学者らしく「ゴジラを殺すな！」と。光を当てて攻撃するなとか、怖がって狂暴になるからとか、なにかゴジラを庇う。
鈴木：ゴジラを可愛がる。ははははは。
花田：さすが生物学者だな！と思うわけです。その点で山根博士は他の人達とゴジラに対する意見を異にしている。で、山根博士の愛弟子だという片目の芹沢博士の方はオキシジェン・デストロイヤーを単独で発明をしたと。それが政治に利用されて戦争に使われたら大量破壊兵器になるから、これは公開しないと。ところが、ゴジラから受ける被害の惨状を見せられて、少女たちの歌なども聞かされて情緒的に転向をして、オキシジェン・デストロイヤーを使うことに踏み切る。「ただし一回だけだぞ」と。そういうことで彼はゴジラのそばへと海に潜るわけですよね。
発明品が成功して、海中でゴジラが骨になる。その結果を確認した後で自分自身の手で潜水服の引綱と酸素吸入のパイプをナイフで切って、オキシジェン・デストロイヤーの知識と共に全て闇に葬るということになる。
そこに科学というものの関わり方は二つのパターンがあって、つまり生命を、たとえゴジラであろうがその生命を尊重する・・・と言ったらいいのかな。要するに生かしていくべきじゃないかというものの見方と、ゴジラを殲滅するために自分の発明したオキシジェン・デストロイヤーを最終的には使う、そして骨にする。しかし、自分の命と引換えにそれを使う。
ゴジラ第一作は佐藤さんからDVDを数ヶ月前に送ってもらって、初めて遅ればせながら観たんですが、非常に思想性があると思うんですね。要するに考えさせられる。マイナス・ワンは私には何も考えさせなかった。
会場大笑い
鈴木：本当ですか？はははは。
花田：ゴジラ第一作は、映画『オッペンハイマー』もそうだけど、エンターテインメントの映画だけれど、ゴジラ第一作はいろいろ考えさせる、要するに知的な刺激があったんです。
鈴木：微笑
花田：私は突飛な発想かもしれないけど、ゴジラ第一作、１９５４年ですよね。オッペンハイマーに観てほしかったですね。
佐藤：確かに１９６０年に来日してますので、オッペンハイマーは『ゴジラ』を鑑賞することは可能だった。日本に招いた湯川秀樹博士は鑑賞させるべきだった（笑）
花田：オッペンハイマーがゴジラ第一作を観て、どういう感想をもつんだろうな〜と思いましたね。
佐藤：観てる可能性はあるかも。
花田：伝記『オッペンハイマー』には出てこないですか？
佐藤：日本に来たことすら伝記には記載が無かった・・・と思います。(注：伝記下巻に来日時の写真掲載ありので佐藤の発言は誤り）
花田：私は伝記も読んでないので、偉そうに言えないんだけど。あの映画監督あるいは脚本家（村田武男・本多猪四郎）は、オッペンハイマーの事を知っていたうえでオッペンハイマーの運命に思いを馳せつつ、第一作のゴジラを作ったのかなーと・・・、そして芹沢博士とオキシジェン・デストロイヤーを登場させたのかなと・・・。
鈴木：分かりませんけど、間違いなく第五福竜丸の被爆事故は『ゴジラ』制作へ影響あったと思います。
佐藤：花田先生の仮説は面白いので覚えてて、本多猪四郎監督などの資料に当たってみたくなりました（笑）
その２に続く
０１ ０２ ０３ ０４ 日本語版リンク Japanese version link
１９５４年３月１７日の新聞社会面
Newspaper society page for March 17, 1954
■ Variety of Scientists' Claims
Hanada: What I find interesting about the first Godzilla film are the two scientists. Dr. Yamane, a paleontologist, and Dr. Serizawa, a paleontologist, are supposed to be the favorite disciples of each other, but they have different specialties. Dr. Serizawa is a medicinal chemist. I think those two scientists are the protagonists of the first film. That is why they have different stances. Dr. Yamane is a paleontologist and says, "Don't kill Gojira! He says, "Don't kill Gojira! He is protective of Gojira, saying, "Don't attack Gojira by shining light on it," or "Don't attack Gojira because it will be frightened and go berserk.
Suzuki: I adore Godzilla. Ha ha ha ha.
Hanada: You are indeed a biologist! That's why I think of him as a biologist.
In that respect, Dr. Yamane has a different opinion of Godzilla from the
others. Dr. Serizawa, who has one eye and is Dr. Yamane's favorite pupil,
invented the Oxygen Destroyer on his own. He says he will not disclose
it because it would be a weapon of mass destruction if it were used for
political purposes and used in war.However, after being shown the devastation caused by Godzilla and hearing the songs of the girls, he makes an emotional turnaround and decides to use the Oxygen Destroyer. He decides to use the Oxygen Destroyer, but only once. So that's how he dives into the sea to be near Godzilla.
The invention is successful and Godzilla becomes bone underwater. After confirming the result, he would cut the diving suit's retractor and oxygen inhalation pipes with his own hands with a knife and leave it all in the dark, along with the knowledge of the Oxygen Destroyer.
There are two ways of relating to science. In other words, we respect life, even if it is Godzilla... or should I say, we respect life. In short, there are two ways of looking at it: one is that we should keep it alive, and the other is that we will eventually use the Oxygen Destroyer that we have invented to destroy Godzilla, and turn it into bones. But he uses it in exchange for his own life.
Mr. Sato sent me a DVD of the first Godzilla film a few months ago, and I watched it for the first time, albeit belatedly, but I think it is very thought-provoking. In short, it makes you think. Minus One didn't make me think about anything.
(laughing) heartily at the audience
Suzuki: Really? Ha ha ha.
Hanada: The first Godzilla film is an entertaining film, as is the film "Oppenheimer," but the first Godzilla film made me think about various things, in short, it was intellectually stimulating.
Suzuki: Smile
Sato: Certainly, since he came to Japan in 1960, Oppenheimer could have viewed "Godzilla. Dr. Hideki Yukawa, who invited him to Japan, should have been allowed to view it (laughs).
Hanada: I wonder what Oppenheimer would think of the first Godzilla film.
Sato: It is possible that you are watching it.
Hanada: Is it not mentioned in the biography "Oppenheimer"?
Sato: I don't think there was any mention in the biography that he even came to Japan.... (Note: Sato's statement is incorrect because a photograph of his visit to Japan is included in the lower volume of the biography.)
Hanada: I haven't even read the biography, so I can't speak highly of it. I wonder if that film director or screenwriter (Takeo Murata and Inoshiro Honda) made the first Godzilla film knowing about Oppenheimer and thinking about Oppenheimer's fate......and if he made Dr. Serizawa and the Oxygen Destroyer appear....
Suzuki: I don't know, but I am certain that the Daigo Fukuryu Maru atomic bombing had an impact on the production of "Godzilla.
Sato: I remember Dr. Hanada's hypothesis because it is interesting, and I wanted to hit up the materials of director Honda Inoshiro and others (laughs).
Continued in Part 2
０１ ０２ ０３ ０４ Links to Japanese and English versions
